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Transcript
NARAYANA SWAMY
Vineet
Welcome back to Photosynthesis, where we talk to some of India’s top photographers and videographers about the art and the business and the passion and the culture of photography in India. Today we have with us Mr. Narayan Swami, who’s been doing photography for more than 40 years, all over India and all over the world. Hi, Mr. Narayan Swami. Welcome to the show.
narayan
Thank you Mr. Vinit. It’s been a pleasure to be with you for this interview
Vineet
And the topic actually, today’s topic comes easy because over 40 years, there’s so much that’s changed in the world of photography. And it’s a very, like, as we were discussing, the topic came really easy on what to begin with. I want to get deep into film, into digital, what you’ve seen, how you’ve seen things change over the last 40 years. How did you begin?
narayan
That is true.
narayan
Okay, see those days it is films mostly whenever we see a newspaper, since I don’t do much of wedding or function party photography, I’m more into advertising kind of commercial photography. And in that mostly we shoot for newspapers and those days newspapers used to be in black and white. So we shoot on black and white films and I know how to do
processing and printing and things like that. And then we give the prints to the advertising agencies. And slowly it became like color. When the color came in.
Vineet
When is color coming?
narayan
Color came in 90s, sorry 70s. But earlier than that it used to be very not up to the mark. But after 70s Kodak and Aqba mostly in the world they were the leaders and QG also they started coming in. So all these three are more commonly used. Especially Kodak because it’s from the US and they had the name on it.
Vineet
So is that the era of Kodachrome? What was Kodachrome?
narayan
Kodachrome is the same, I told you, it’s a positive fill-in. Same like your negative, it will be a positive, but in a negative form. It is good for magazines, colour magazines if you want to reproduce. Then,
narayan
Yeah and another thing is in the films there is a disadvantage that is called the lighting part like when you want your ISO to be you’ll have to buy extra if you’re talking about mostly commonly used is 100 ASA or 125 ASA but if you are going to shoot in a night then you’ll have to buy 800 ASA film or something like that so the film is
different than what it is to be in digital.
Vineet
I remember, I remember, yeah, when I used to buy film, it used to be choose between a hundred ASA and 400 ASA, like the most, two most commonly types.
narayan
Yes, because we need to increase the, we can’t go beyond the aperture opener, like 2 or 2.8, but we need to capture, then we need to increase, because we cannot get down from the shutter, especially if it is a cricket match or something like that, then we cannot bring down the shutter speed. We can compensate on the aperture, but then we need to, it’s like a triangle, so ISO you can increase.
So we need to change the film accordingly.
Vineet
So there was no ISO button at all on the camera. It’s just depending on what kind of film you use. Right.
narayan
Yes, we need to set it up on each cameras. What film you have put in and then you will have to set on the ISOs.
Vineet
And could you change film like mid-roll? Like if you decide, no, I need a hundred now, but my, the real I have right now is 400.
narayan
Yes, but those days that film used to be like 36 frames if you are talking about small cameras. For medium format it used to be 10 frames or 12 frames like Asan Blad, Mamiya RB67 like that. So when you remove it, it is wasted. But if I remove it in the darkroom, I can reuse it coming back to the same frame. And coming to the same frame, I will have to put the lens cover closed and then keep clicking till that frame.
After that I can continue if I really want to.
Vineet
But if you change it outside, the whole role is gone.
narayan
No, no, you can’t do that outside. You cannot change. All the photos, what you have taken will be gone. Thank you.
Vineet
So that was, so a hundred ASA and 400 ASA was basically the, uh, the ISO settings. Were there any other settings in film that you had to decide when you were buying?
narayan
Yeah.
No, no, one more point I want to raise here. If you buy a film, it will be written like A.S.A. slash D.I.M., DIN. Not that people know what is that DIN. Okay? It’s nothing but equivalent to A.S.A. But, you know, even today Russia is problematic with America or around the world. So, in Zenith cameras you will not get A.S.A. It’s called DIN only.
Vineet
What is that?
narayan
So Din is being used by the USSR people after the Cold War.
narayan
DIN is used. 100 slash 21. If you buy a film, ASA is written as 100 slash 21. 29, 21. That means 21 I must keep in my camera if I am using a Zenith camera. That is equivalent to 100 AS.
Vineet
Oh, okay. And when did Zenith cameras come in?
narayan
Is that it? It’s been there from 60’s I think. It’s a, yeah, it’s mechanical, totally mechanical. But really our work was…
Vineet
from the 60s. Wow.
Vineet
And there were multiple kinds of films, right? There’s positive film, there’s negative film.
narayan
No, only film we will have to change, nothing else. Next year everything will be the same.
narayan
So that knowledge depends on the lens setting and exposure.
Vineet
And then, then what changed? So basically that was the time of Fujifilm, Kodachrome. What was the next? And Agfa, yes. What was the next major change?
narayan
And I clock. I clock.
Vineet
Indofilms.
So what was the next major change? What really changed next? Because this film era was along like 70s to 90s, right? Was there any major change before digital came in?
narayan
In my profession I will tell you, advertising field they will have to give slowly. If they want to give for the client for pitching, they will ask us to do a photograph from the book, copying and printing for smooth size and then we give it for them to stick it in the artwork.
narayan
After sometime the Xerox machines came with color, color Xerox came. So all that is gone. So slowly that way it was going out, fading out. But I heard after 90s when the digital came, I came to know that in 80s itself digital format has come with product. But they wantedly didn’t put it in the market because their feelings will go waste.
So they have been pushing it till now, till 90s actually.
Vineet
No, but in film, so tell me how the pro, so if you send, if you shoot photos on a negative for let’s say a magazine, if you want to develop them yourselves, you are doing that in a dark room. But if you’re sending it to the magazine, what are you sending? Are you sending the negative? Like, are you cutting it out and sending it to the magazine?
narayan
Yeah.
narayan
Mm.
narayan
No sir, it will be transparency shot. If I am taking your picture or some model’s picture, I will have to be very perfect with my exposure. So, when you are talking about this transparency film, your processing should be perfect. Then only your exposure will be correct. If the processing time is little, one minute more, you will get dark. So, like that it is.
we always shoot one negative for checking up, checking up how it is like that. And after that we are giving processing, then we give the other roles because when you are shooting a model or something, you will be shooting about 8-10 roles. If I give all the 8-10 roles, it will get wasted. So first testing we will give one role to test and then we tell them one third or two
narayan
correct it and then process the rest of the film. Then we give all the shots to them, to the magazine people.
Vineet
in transparency format.
narayan
because those days there was no Photoshop.
Vineet
Yeah, absolutely.
narayan
or you cannot adjust the exposure so we need to be one third two third like that we shoot for one picture I will be shooting three frames.
and I was working with Mamiya RB67 and also I have a large format camera which is called Sinara. It is supposed to be the world’s Rolls Royce camera. Those days, 4×5. Each one is
Vineet
In what way? Like what, what made a Rolls Royce? What made a camera a Rolls Royce equivalent?
narayan
That is the expensive camera.
Vineet
What, why would you buy? Like what were the best features about it?
narayan
The way how you use it, you must have seen olden type cameras with the cloth put on top, dark, you know, balanced cameras. This is also a balanced camera, you don’t have to do a lot of tuning, it’s not there, it’s like a radio tuning. And of course they have basic like cars, you know, basic and high end like that. I bought a high end because the tuning is done like…
radio tuning and you will be very accurate with how you are focusing with your backstandard and the frontstandard. If little bit one degree up then it is out of focus. But the sharpness that you get is extraordinary and you can elongate the subject, you can control the subject close up also like that. Lot of tricks and very difficult to understand that camera.
Vineet
in the camera select elongate the subject how what does that mean?
narayan
If I’m shooting a car and if I want to show it, it’s a more longer car.
I can make it look longer and if I want to shorten it I can shorten it.
And if I shoot a tall building, it goes like horizontal, like cortical. In that, I can make it very standard. Today, it is Ctrl T in Photoshop.
Vineet
or like a tilt shift lens I would think something like that
narayan
Yes, yes, yes. But those days no shift lens. You will have to, mostly they depend on this camera for the architectural shots.
Vineet
That’s interesting. So right now, if I have, if I pick a more expensive camera, I know I’m getting a much better autofocus typically faster frame rate, typically sharpness I would think is more on the lens than on the camera. Like, I guess even if I take a basic camera and a great lens.
narayan
Yes.
Vineet
It’s more on the lens. What are the other features that helped you select a camera back then?
narayan
Sorry sir, I didn’t get you.
Vineet
what all features would help you select a camera back then? So one is, for example, the sharpness you’re talking about in the really expensive ones.
narayan
Generally, every camera mostly had, professionally cameras they don’t have batteries. I had a, I still have it, Mamiya RB67, which I can open it in one minute and set it back in one minute. Lenses, body, back, everything. And you can interchange the backs those days, even today. Because we used to shoot with black and white film.
narayan
Chrome films and also colour films for the same shot. So we used to have 3-4 backs such that we change and the lens of the body will be there standing. And the advantages will be like some of the cameras will have the exposure and aperture on the lens itself not on the camera. Camera is just the body.
and things like that. If you are talking about battery operated ones, then the more features it will have that we will be buying according to the price the cameras are sold. So, being a professional I need to buy the top end.
Vineet
That is an interesting question. You said the battery operated ones. So the others were fully manual. There were, there was no battery also.
narayan
The FM2 camera had both like hybrid. You use the battery, it will give you the exposure alone and still it will be operating. Even if there is no battery, it will be operating like on FM2.
Vineet
Yeah.
narayan
But after that today it is all batteries and you have the battery only you can shoot.
narayan
When I was in Dubai, when Sony introduced different models of cameras, they gave me Sony 717 model in 2001 or 2000 I think, to test and give them the report. Sorry.
Vineet
Mm.
Vineet
Is that a digital model? Is that a digital camera?
narayan
Yes, because they wanted to test the digital camera and so they gave me the digital camera to test and give me the feedback. So I was shooting all the important places of Dubai and they paid for me also and I gave them all the photographs those days and it is hardly 3.5 megapixels or something, very less megapixels.
And slowly, for my kind of work, I picked up HT10, I think, from PaceOne, a company called PaceOne, and Denmark, where they have been making digital cameras, digital backs only, not cameras, for professional cameras. So I bought and tested that. Then now I have.
Vineet
Yeah.
@
narayan
P25 model for my Mamiya AFD 6.4.5 medium format cameras, medium format digital cameras.
Vineet
Yeah. Well, that’s it. So by the way, in the film era, like in the earlier manual cameras, how, how would you, in film cameras rather, how were megapixel calculations done? Like what mega was there even such a thing as a, you know, X megapixel camera or film?
narayan
because there is picture from that.
narayan
Yeah, the smaller the sensor at the back.
Vineet
Yeah.
narayan
the output will be much lesser. Suppose today what happened is, even my granddaughter is taking a camera and say I want to shoot from mobile phone. Photography has gone to that extent where everybody knows photography, everybody can click, just click and click. It became so easy. But today, those days it is very difficult to get a picture taken by somebody. Right. So, well.
When you are shooting, even those days, the smaller like wedding photography, you must have seen the 35 mm cameras. And my camera is 120 mm medium format camera. And I was talking about 4 x 5 camera. Each film is 4 x 5 inches. 4 inches x 5 inches. Yes. So each film is that big. So what is the difference is, if I put output from that camera lens, from that film,
Vineet
4.5 inches.
Oh wow.
narayan
I can make banner from that, very crispy and clear. Whereas if I take a 35mm film, it is 4 times on my video format, 6×7 format. And 6×7 is 4 times on 4×5. So it all depends on the quality, crispiness and everything. The same thing now, it has come to the sensors. When your sensor is small, your output is going to be lesser.
If you are thinking about a big banner, then you must go for a medium format digital camera, not with 35 mm. But today’s world, the other part has grown up too big, like Photoshop and the other people who are developing apps for that particular brand. They are saying today, they are saying if I give you 2.8 MB file size, I will make it into 10 point whatever the size you want.
without losing our response because it is all pixels. So they’re adding up more pixels and in today’s world I’m going crazy.
Vineet
Oh yeah, now I’m using a 33 megapixel and I’m like, oh, I miss my 42 megapixel Sony.
narayan
Even before, if you do any photograph, autofocus. Thank you very much. Nobody can do anything. Today they say you do autofocus, although I’ll make it focus. Sharp. So things are so much so that we are not able to compete. Even especially this 15-20 years, the growth is tremendous. In all…
Vineet
No, it’s crazy both in both in software and in hardware. It’s been crazy.
narayan
That is the problem because today’s world, today AIS come. So if I am trying to take a photograph and I want northern lights at the background or Paris car, Paris is background, I just type Paris background and it gives me four or five meters of the Eiffel Tower. So whichever I see it, photography is all gimmick.
Vineet
Yeah, I-
like there’s a space for AI I don’t think
Yeah, I don’t think Photoshop should have introduced this. Like there’s a space for AI and gimmickry. I don’t like Photoshop is the photographer’s tool. I don’t think, I feel, I wish we hadn’t introduced, you know, just add the helicopter in the background.
Vineet
So tell me what was editing like back in the day, back in the dark room, what all were you doing in the dark room?
narayan
Darkroom, even black and white if you do, you will have to be very perfect with your developer.
and then the fixture. What I have processed in 1978, I still have the negative proper because there are ways and means of doing the proper way of processing a negative or print. And the same thing in color as well as in transparency process also.
Vineet
What all can you change like, you know, in terms of exposure, brightness, contrast, what all saturation, what all can you change? Like I’ve heard so much about Ansel Adams doing dodge and burn, which is a…
narayan
Yeah, dot, dot
Vineet
Yeah.
Vineet
Yeah.
narayan
or transparency process, my temperature should be the same for developers. If my temperature goes low also, I will be losing the exposure. If it is going high also, it will be losing the exposure. So my temperature for developers is very important, very important, consistent. So I know how to do manually also, but I bought a Jovo machine from Germany.
Vineet
So your color temperature is also impacting the exposure.
narayan
which will do all the process black and white, color and I still have that mission and I can do all 25 mm, 120 mm and 4 by 5 also I can.
Vineet
and was.
Vineet
So was color temperature a factor of the camera, the reel, or entirely in editing, in the dark room rather, not post-processing.
narayan
One thing, I can’t change what I’m shooting.
Vineet
Yeah.
narayan
When I am shooting a film, I can’t do anything because the total thing is registered on the film. But, especially to talk about certain scenes, for example, if I am doing a night shot of a total area, for example, one factory, what happens is the lighting is not done in all the places. Some places may be dark, some places over burning, so things like that.
When we are shooting, we are shooting at 30 seconds or 1 minute exposure. We will put on the standard exposure. So when I am shooting itself, I can see where that film, where it is capturing the more exposed area like the very bright light, I will try to dodge. When it is entering into my film itself, I will be dodging when I am exposing.
by covering all the lighted part, if I give more exposure to the darker part, I get them more lighted up. So things like that we play in the dark. That is one way. Another way is when we are doing the printing for example. Printing we can do, but in transparency we have to do this kind of dodging and burning when we are shooting itself. Because in printing of course same thing we can do, dodging and burning where it is more light.
One print will be wasting but it’s okay but the second print we can try to dot and burn and try to look correct exposure on all the areas.
Vineet
But when you say wasting one print, are you doing that before you start using the reel to test it or?
narayan
No, where? I should not work to burn, no?
Vineet
Sorry.
narayan
We need to know where to dodge, where to burn the subject. Realize. So that is called a test print.
So, and mostly, I don’t know about many photographers, but for me, I had my own darkroom. I had two, three assistants with me, so they will be doing the dotting and burning. I also know, but then, my thing is to shoot and then tell them how it should be.
Vineet
Yes.
narayan
I had my own group.
Even if I lose five games.
Vineet
So what else can you change? Can you change contrast, saturation in film?
narayan
Yes, it’s all done. Today’s Photoshop, you know how to. Those days when you’re shooting, we’ll have to do all that, or we put filters. We put filters also. I have a full kit of working filters, about 40, 50 line with this. All type of filters.
Vineet
Yeah, I just do left, right, right.
Vineet
Like filters as in the kind of filters, the glass filters we use today, like the CPL filters, the UV filters.
narayan
I think you put contrast to be more on black and white, things like that. ATA is something you know I forgot. It’s been those days that I used filters. But there are filters to control contrast and exposure and everything.
narayan
No, the advantage with digital is, I have shot Mr. Isha Rarai, I shot Yukta Mukhi, I shot Mohd Ali Boxer, not only them, but many around the world. The advantage or disadvantage is, I’ll tell you the advantage part. If I’m shooting your picture and if the art director want the look, the smile, everything should be perfect like this.
shot when you shoot you can immediately see it on the computer right and especially this goes not with the most of the models Okay if I am shooting kids for example they are very naughty and if you tell them to give me a good expression they will not.
narayan
So we keep checking but in the digital immediately we will know that when we are shooting okay we got that picture finished. But in a film we don’t know until and unless it gets processed and then comes back.
Vineet
And what is the advantage of using film? Once you have digital, what is the advantage of being on film?
narayan
Now if you ask me, it’s waste of time and money on film.
narayan
Why waste of time is I can get what I want immediately I am known and I see the picture what I shot from digital and also for film I have to keep on buying film to get one shot maybe 10 rolls, 3 rolls, 5 rolls but in this one I don’t need to. I will just take out clean wipe out the CF card again shoot on that so many times.
That’s why nowadays wedding photographers shooting 10,000 shots and then selecting only 800 shots or 600 shots. But if it is going to be the fill in, they will have a tough time. Because you will have to be very perfect with your shot. It’s like a sniper shot.
Vineet
Yes.
narayan
It should be like a sniper shot. But today, randomly they are shooting and then they say, I’m a professional photographer. No, that is not true. And they cannot be. If you know what exactly you are shooting, it should be 10 shots or 200 shots. Finished. Thank you. But it never happens today. Because it’s free. Why not I shoot? You know?
Vineet
It’s free. And it’s like my camera is 10 FPS, which by today’s standards is quite low. Like I think the R10 now goes to like some insane, some 120 FPS or something I’m hearing. Right. I don’t even know what to do with 120 frames per second. Like I just ran out of SD card space and got no how much time, but even at 10 FPS, I get so much variety in my shots. Is life is easy?
narayan
Yeah.
Vineet
because I can just keep shooting there’s no risk there’s no downside and even if I’m shooting moving people like lot of movement some of the other shot will be great right so
narayan
Yeah, yeah. No, this also depends. If you put it in program, it should by itself like those days automatic. It selects by itself. So all that options are there. But if they come to manual, they’ll have a tough time to see the photography is depends on what you have in your mind. If I’m shooting you with your background blur, then I should know how to do it.
Vineet
Yeah.
narayan
If I want both clear, I must know the length of how to chore. Or if I don’t want you and the background only, then you should know how to do it. But not many people know how to do it. Especially moving subject like racing or running or horse race, something like that.
Vineet
So I guess there is an advantage to learning on film, right? That it stays with you. You learn the skill once. In digital.
narayan
No, today’s world is more easier to learn on digital. You don’t lose anything. Those days I’ll have to, not only that, after taking the shot, I’ll have to wait for two days for this video fellow to process and give me that film. And I’ll have to understand the negative.
Vineet
It’s absolutely.
Vineet
Also my problem, whenever I was traveling, like whenever I was traveling with the, you know, the earlier with reels, with the film camera, my problem was I have a roll of 36 shots. I’m on a four, five day trip. So the first two, three days I’m just preserving. No, no, I can’t take this shot. I can’t take, I have like, you know, only 20 shots, 19 shots. Last day I’m like, okay, I still have 15 shots left now. Click, click, click. I would always, that would always happen with me.
narayan
Yes.
narayan
Because we are restricted, if not we will have to keep on changing the film, role after role.
Vineet
Yeah, and there’s a cost to film and there’s a cost to developing also.
narayan
processing and printing so expensive that’s why not many were having cameras those days in India. But today if you go every house you got a digital camera.
Vineet
Yeah.
Vineet
Yeah, like the first, first trek I went for, I went for, I came back with some 32, 33 shots. The last trek I went for, I came back with about 1500 shots. That’s the difference.
So.
narayan
If I travel I get about 300-400 thousand.
Vineet
Yeah, now I’m learning to discipline myself and not come back with 1500. I should come back with 300. I think too much pain afterwards to edit them all.
narayan
My point is if I travel, I will not be going back again to that same place. So I try to get as much as possible such that after I come back, I will select which is correct exposed and sharpness, everything. For example, I was shooting Chandrayaan 3 when it took off.
Vineet
Oh, like.
narayan
Yeah, I sent some of my shots I sent. And it was interesting. Because it’s not easy. People are pushing so much crowd in Sriharikota. So it was fun. But I got good shots I sent. And I still have something to send also. I have so much that I love to India itself. I have so much to work and keep sending for your stock shots.
Vineet
Well, that’s amazing.
Vineet
And by the way, do you still have all the equipment you’ve talked about? The Mamiya camera. Oh, you still have it. Can you take photos and send it to us? We’ll basically put it on the YouTube podcast alongside.
narayan
All the…
Yes, I still have.
narayan
next time I’ll show you. It’s in the studio actually. I still have the Veloz camera also. 1950s collection.
Vineet
Now we’ll try to find links to these and put them in the show notes and on screen when we’re airing, when we’re putting this on YouTube. Absolutely, absolutely. That would be fantastic. Because you’ll put them.
narayan
Can I shoot and send you or?
narayan
because each one is different. This is 1950s, then they brought it into a latest style by which each tuning is done by like a radio tuning. The angle of the front standard and back standard will move like that. So these two I love to be perfect, then only you get the sharpness and focus. If I go like this, then the sharpness goes down. My standard will have to be the same, standard back standard.
and these are all bellows. So it will be like a snake, it will be moving up and down anyway. And the other one is digital, sorry, Mamiya AFD. And I’ll also show you the latest one which I use nowadays. Mamiya 6.4.5 camera, which is battery operated. And with my digital back, I’ll show you the digital back also, the sensor, how big this is, comparing to
35-Hour-Moment Digital Cam.
Vineet
Now this will be fascinating. It’s been a fantastic history lesson for me. And also now I appreciate my Sony A7 IV much more. It makes my life so easy. I will never complain about it ever again. So thank you so much, Mr. Narayan Swami. This has been a fantastic discussion. Thank you for joining us.
Vineet
Yes and everyone else thank you for watching and hearing on Spotify that’s where you are right now unfortunately you won’t be able to see the clips on Spotify the photos so watch us on YouTube see you next time thank you bye
